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Wednesday, October 16, 2013

Revised migration routes of Eurasian Y-chromosome haplogroups


A preprint at arXiv argues that most Chinese paternal lineages can be grouped into three subclades within Y-chromosome haplogroup O3, and that these expanded rapidly during the East Asian Neolithic. Moreover, it includes a series of maps showing early migration routes of modern humans across Eurasia. These maps suggest that Y-chromosome haplogroups R1a and R1b broke away from R1 about 14.8K years ago somewhere in West Central Asia, and then non-Indo-European groups loaded with R1b migrated to the Atlantic fringe via a route north of the Black Sea. R1a is singled out as the Proto-Indo-European marker, which makes sense based on its latest phylogeny and elevated presence in various ancient samples (see here).

Haplogroup P diverged into Q and R at ~24.1 kya, slightly before the LGM. Most Q individuals in Han Chinese belong to the Q1a1-M120 clade, while R’s in Han Chinese are mostly R1a1-M17. The separation events of R1 and R2, and R1a and R1b are estimated here at 19.9 and 14.8 kya, respectively. R1b roamed till the Atlantic coast, forming some of the non-Indo-European groups (e.g. Basque)32.

Yen et al., Y Chromosomes of 40% Chinese Are Descendants of Three Neolithic Super-grandfathers, arXiv:1310.3897v1 [q-bio.PE]

26 comments:

barakobama said...

"R1a is singled out as the Proto-Indo-European marker, which makes sense based on its latest phylogeny and elevated presence in various ancient samples (see here)."

It is true y DNA of Corded ware culture and early Indo Iranians and Tocherians in asia like tarim mummies show they had Y DNa R1a1. But I would not say R1a is proto indo European. More like R1a1a1 M417 is a major y DNa haplogroup of some Indo European speakers around Russia and Ukriane maybe 6,000-8,000 years ago. The Corded ware branch which is dominate in Balto Slavs and is also very popular in Norway and Sweden because Corded ware culture existed there is R1a1a1b1 Z285 the Indo Iranian and Tocherian branch is R1a1a1b2 Z93. Those are pretty deep subclades I think R1a is way to old to call it proto Indo European.

Also if it is the Indo European haplogroup why has Y DNa showed there was a huge expansion of y DNA R1b1a2a L11 in western Europe starting 4,500-5,000ybp. And why does it fit so perfectly with Germanic and Italo Celtic speakers. Why don't they have high amounts of R1a. It makes sense that R1b1a2a1a L11 spread with Germanic and Italo Celtic languages. Who else could spread Y DNa like that except war like Indo Europeans. They did it in eastern Europe and asia it makes total sense people with a similar culture did the same in western Europe. I get sick of people genralzing R1b and R1a and assuming R1b1a2a1a L11 in western Europe is not from Germanics and Italo Celts.

barakobama said...

The R1a1 in China makes total sense it is from Tocherian and Indo Iranian inter marriage. You can look at ancient DNA the tarim mummies those are mainly R1a1 people in western China 4,000 years ago. Also Andronovo culture in Siberia 3,800-3,400ybp their y DNA also shows R1a1. I say also in ancient Chinese mtDNA rarely there is European mtDNa U5a, U2, and U4 which together took up about 35% of Indo Iranian mtDNA samples. I am sure were ever those mtDNA haplogroups are mainly found so is R1a1.

I don't understand why people are so inlove with R1a and R1b. We know they tell nothing about the origin of all Europeans its only a paternal line. R1b1a2a1a L11 expaned in western Europe starting just 4,500-5,000ybp. R1a1a1b did not become super popular in eastern Europe till 5,000ybp or so. Y DNA R is Mongliod that's for sure has nothing to do with the origin of Europeans since Europeans are Caucasians like Near easterns and north Africans. I don't like how people say stuff like when did Europeans and Mongliods split. They should say when did Caucasians and Mongliod Oceania split. Austomal DNA, Y DNa, and mtDNa all show Mongliods are most related to the natives of Australia and all the "Black" looking people in asia.

Davidski said...

Languages can be learned, so there's no need for both R1a and R1b to be Proto-Indo-European haplogroups. All that had to happen was for Western European populations to learn Indo-European from Corded Ware and Unetice groups in Central Europe, and then migrate back to Western Europe.

The complete absence of R1b in Andronovo, Scythian and Tarim Basin remains is already highly suggestive of its non-Indo-European origins.

barakobama said...

Davidski you should look at R1a1a on FTDNA. It is not random that both Corded ware(suspected to speak ancestral to Balto Slavic) and Andronovo(suspected early Indo Iranians) both had R1a1 and both descending from Yamna. and that Balto Slavs have R1a1a1b1 Z285 and Indo Iranians R1a1a1b2 Z93. It fits perfectly with those Y DNA haplogroups spreading with the languages. People already suspected this before any of R1a1 ancient DNA results because of age estimates and other things about these haplogroups.

I never said R1b is connected with all Indo European languages so far I would say R1b1a2a1a L11 is only connected with Germanic and Italo Celtic languages. I wouldn't except any R1b except R1b1a1 M73 from Andronovo or any Indo Iranians.

We cant give such an easy explanation for why Indo European speakers dominated and spread so much. No way is learning a language from another people then spreadin it a good example. You would find obvious similarities between Balto Slavic and Germanic and Italo Celtic languages. Why did Indo Iranians also dominate asia I think it has to do with their culture. And with western European indo Europeans their religion Germani and Celtic mythology is in the same family as Hinduism, Greek, Slavic, and Baltic mythologies. So they did not just adopt language they adomted religion and you can say burial's with Kurgens and other cultural things. And age estimates of the spread of R1b1a2a1a L11 and its subclades fits to perfectly to when Germanic and Italo Celtic languages would have spread. Why did R1b1a2a1a L11 kill off so much of the native paternal lineages of western Europe, The same reason R1a1a1b1 Z283 did it in eastern Europe and Scandinavia and the same reason R1a1a1b2 Z93 did it in asia. Because they conquered that's how they spread Indo European languages and the native men died and there were more R1b1a2a1a L11 men to reproduce. ATHey were the kings they force as many women to be their wives as they wanted spreading their haplogroup even more.

Evidence of this is in India were R1a1a1b2 Z93 is very popular in the Indus valley which we know through written record Indo Iranians conquered. Brahmin who are suppose to be their descendants(mainly just paternal line) have the much higher rates than lower caste some brahims over 70%. Indo European culture is probably takes military and fighting more seriously than the average and they had very good weapons for war like Chariots.

Davidski said...

I was talking about the Proto-Indo-Europeans. There's no evidence that R1b had anything to do with them.

The biggest problem is the total absence of R1b in the two sets of samples from the early Bronze Age Tarim Basin mummies, and almost complete dominance of R1a in those sample sets. That's because the ancestors of the Tarim Basin mummies began their migration from Eastern Europe during the Copper Age. Hence, their Y-DNA gene pool is likely to be very close to that of the Proto-Indo-Europeans.

Nirjhar007 said...

@Davidski
First, love to see your face! but what is the problem?why the picture vanishes after clicking it?
''The biggest problem is the total absence of R1b in the two sets of samples from the early Bronze Age Tarim Basin mummies, and almost complete dominance of R1a in those sample sets. That's because the ancestors of the Tarim Basin mummies began their migration from Eastern Europe during the Copper Age. Hence, their Y-DNA gene pool is likely to be very close to that of the Proto-Indo-Europeans.''
What language they spoke tokharian?
By the way after they are finished with sequencing Farmana aDNA in the US the Indo-European Mystery will be solved!
and they have some related news also-
http://www.archaeology.org/news/487-curry-indus-farmana-turmeric-garlic
Good day.

Davidski said...

"First, love to see your face! but what is the problem? why the picture vanishes after clicking it?"

How about now?

barakobama said...

"I was talking about the Proto-Indo-Europeans. There's no evidence that R1b had anything to do with them.

The biggest problem is the total absence of R1b in the two sets of samples from the early Bronze Age Tarim Basin mummies, and almost complete dominance of R1a in those sample sets. That's because the ancestors of the Tarim Basin mummies began their migration from Eastern Europe during the Copper Age. Hence, their Y-DNA gene pool is likely to be very close to that of the Proto-Indo-Europeans."

I don't think you understand not all Indo Europeans 5,000-8,000ybp were the same and had the same Y DNA haplogroups. The tarim mummies are probably connected to Andronovo people in somewhat. their culture in near by south central Siber they also had Y DNa R1a1 mainly European mtDNA U subclades U5, U4, and U2e and mainly light hair and eyes, also DNA from later suspected Indo Iranian people show the same results. Tarim mummies are defintley connected with spread of Indo Iranian languages and also Tocherian. And earliest suspected Indo Iranian culture are Abashevo and Sinhsta cultures just over 4,000 years old very far from copper age.

barakobama said...

That picture you have Davidski is a statue of the head of a Tocherian in west china do you notice he has red hair. I think that the people who spread Indo Iranian and Tocherian languages were genetically their own people. You should look uo Indo Iranian and Tocherian DNA clikc on the one that is on Anthrogencia.com. I made that thread. It seems red hair was probably over 1% there is a 3,000 year old tarim mummy with red hair named Charchen man. BUdni and Sycthian tribe from Ukriane were described as all having bright red hair by Greek historian Herdotus. There are other depictions of red haired tocherians. And you can see red hair in near eastern Indo Iranian speakers pop up sometimes. I think this is major because red hair is only at 1% or more in western Europe, southern and central Scandinavia, and Volga Russia. So this would maybe somehow connect their ancestry with Volga Russians one ethnic group the Udmurts have 15% red hair just above Irish, highlander Scottish, and Welsh.

Average Joe said...

Y DNA R is Mongliod

Not necessarily. Mongoloid traits likely only appeared after the split of R1, R1b and R1a1. I think it is highly likely that Mongoloids are descended from Caucasoid populations.

Average Joe said...

Languages can be learned, so there's no need for both R1a and R1b to be Proto-Indo-European haplogroups. All that had to happen was for Western European populations to learn Indo-European from Corded Ware and Unetice groups in Central Europe, and then migrate back to Western Europe.

You are assuming that Corded Ware and Unetice groups spoke Indo-European. Also why would ancient western Europeans go to eastern Europe just to learn a language?

Average Joe said...

The complete absence of R1b in Andronovo, Scythian and Tarim Basin remains is already highly suggestive of its non-Indo-European origins.

Please elaborate. Also might not R1b have existed in these areas once and then have been gradually replace over time?

Davidski said...

"Please elaborate. Also might not R1b have existed in these areas once and then have been gradually replace over time?"

There's not much to elaborate on. R1b simply does not exist in any of the prehistoric European-derived Central Asian remains. What this suggests very strongly is that it wasn't present in the Proto-Indo-European gene pool.

Whether it was present in Central Asia at the time is a different issue. This can be resolved by testing remains that aren't culturally linked to the Kurgan archeological sphere.

Nirjhar007 said...

@David
'' How About Now?"
In the Original pic you looked-
Smart+Cool+Relaxed.
In the current you look-
A man of his roots+Philosophical+A man who wants others to remember him through the ages.
It is your choice to choose....

Nirjhar007 said...

@obama
''That picture you have Davidski is a statue of the head of a Tocherian in west china do you notice he has red hair''
But David has beautiful Black hair! Just like me and you?....
@Average Joe
''You are assuming that Corded Ware and Unetice groups spoke Indo-European. Also why would ancient western Europeans go to eastern Europe just to learn a language?''
Because the language family is the most successful:)and every one wants to learn now,then and forever!!
BTW the picture shouldn't Barack have it instead of you?
Good Day To all...

Davidski said...

My hair isn't black. It's very similar to that of the statue in my avatar.

Nirjhar007 said...

''My hair isn't black. It's very similar to that of the statue in my avatar.''
Then it was genius to remove the first pic:)....
BTW do you like Curry?

Davidski said...

It seems you're confused by the cap.

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1537/fip3.png

And yes, I like curry. But I very much doubt the early Indo-Europeans ate curry.

Nirjhar007 said...

Yes now i get it;) thanks....
''And yes, I like curry. But I very much doubt the early Indo-Europeans ate curry.''
Why not?

Davidski said...

Curry wasn't known in Eastern Europe until recently. Food in Eastern Europe is very different to that in South Asia (ie. less spicy and heavier), probably because of the significant climatic differences between the two regions.

It's likely that the early Indo-Europeans ate a lot of horse and cattle meat, and eventually a lot of millet too. The most commonly grown millet in Eastern Europe is proso millet, and millet in Tocharian was called proso, or something close to that anyway.

Davidski said...

"You are assuming that Corded Ware and Unetice groups spoke Indo-European."

They had to, because they're in the right place at the right time, and show the right archeological connections.

"Also why would ancient western Europeans go to eastern Europe just to learn a language?"

I never said Western Europeans migrated to Eastern Europe. I've always said that Western Europeans migrated to Central Europe (Megalithic cultures, Bell Beakers), and this is where they eventually picked up Indo-European speech during the Bronze Age. They then migrated back west and south during the Iron Age, with Italo-Celtic languages.

Nirjhar007 said...

''Curry wasn't known in Eastern Europe until recently. Food in Eastern Europe is very different to that in South Asia (ie. less spicy and heavier), probably because of the significant climatic differences between the two regions.''
What is the word for Ginger and Garlic in your root tongue?
''It's likely that the early Indo-Europeans ate a lot of horse and cattle meat, and eventually a lot of millet too. The most commonly grown millet in Eastern Europe is proso millet, and millet in Tocharian was called proso, or something close to that anyway.''
Linguistics eh? I always imagined you as Mr.R1a like Mr.Cricket Mike Hussey:), let see....
What you say is regional not original if Millet was the part of original PIE food then we would have a common word for it in most IE Languages...

Davidski said...

Ginger and garlic are imbir and czosnek in Polish. No idea what they are in old Slavic though?

You can read about the millet connections between Slavic and Tocharian here.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=mox4cw6zY6kC&pg=PA196&lpg=PA196&dq=tocharian+millet+proso&source=bl&ots=upmC12EndH&sig=2s6RSmxm8-DeLIXpV_dpL4Wb9Sk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nbNkUsHqDYq6iQec_4HoAQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=tocharian%20millet%20proso&f=false

Kornelije Kovac said...

Also why would ancient western Europeans go to eastern Europe just to learn a language?

They didn't. On their way from Asia, R1b had to pass through Europe, and that's where they picked up IE language from R1a.

Davidski said...

I think Western Europeans were Indo-Europeanized when these two arrows met in Central Europe, and then the first arrow went back into Western Europe.

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/9937/g9sn.png

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/2310/wynh.png

This was the Bell Beaker reflux migration which led to Italo-Celtic.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/they-had-blond-hair-and-light-eyes-and.html

andrew said...

"I don't understand why people are so inlove with R1a and R1b. We know they tell nothing about the origin of all Europeans its only a paternal line. R1b1a2a1a L11 expaned in western Europe starting just 4,500-5,000ybp. R1a1a1b did not become super popular in eastern Europe till 5,000ybp or so."

Read your quote and it is pretty self-evident. R1a and R1b are the predominant Y-DNA lineages in Europe. In 3000 BCE they had a near zero frequency. By probably 500 BCE, haplogroup frequencies were pretty much what they are today except to the extent that recent historic era migrations have tweaked it a bit.

Wow! Something like 70%-75% of patriline lineages in modern Europe are traceable to immigration in this 2500 year period and these are also the likely bearers of the predominant language family of modern Europe. It is hard to even imagine such a profound change in a whole continent's population genetic makeup.

Also, absent really weird population models, a 70%-75% shift in patriline ancestry is going to be accompanied by very significant males source autosomal genetic impacts. And, we also know that there were significant, roughly contemporaneous mtDNA lineage percentage shifts (at least a twenty percentage point shift in mtDNA H alone). Those data points combined suggests that autosomal impact from this wave of migration was probably on the order of 40%+

This is just a huge part of our ancestry and heritage and we know very little about it.